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GoT - 803

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Postby wags83 » Sun Apr 28, 2019 9:46 pm

Holy fuuuuuuuuck!!!!!
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Postby Blue Jackets » Mon Apr 29, 2019 6:20 am

Game of Thrones battle was the biggest ever, but way too dark to see
Melisandre was the real MVP of the episode. She gave us something that resembled actual lighting
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Postby Tyler » Mon Apr 29, 2019 7:16 am

Outstanding episode. Was this the longest battle ever portrayed in TV or movies? I think Battle of the Bastards might have been the better fight, mostly because it was during the day and you could actually see what was going on. There were some great moments in this fight though, like:
-The Dokrathi fire wave riding off into the dark and hitting a black wall and just dying out. (more on this below)
-The Unsullied military tactics. Like seeing how they would allow the middle lines to retreat and then shore up the line again
-The waves of wights. Very World War Z like
-Arya inside the castle showing us how sneaky she is. Her blood hitting the ground makes more noise than she does moving. Had to establish this since her sneakiness saves the entire world later
-Jon running to get to the NK. He fails miserably, but it was pretty emotional to see him run that way and have to leave Sam and his other A characters fighting on their own.

I don't necessarily believe this myself, but I want to ask the question. Thematically, did Arya deserve the Night King kill? Would it have been better if Jon did it? Or even Jaime (the king slayer) or Bran?

Now some of the complaints:
-Dragons. Dany is horrible about utilizing her dragons. She should have been constantly roasting the wights. It seemed like her and Jon were stuck in a cloud for half of the battle. It was also really hard to follow the dragon action I thought.
-I mentioned the darkness above. I thought it was largely because we were watching in VR, but it seems like a large majority on r/gameofthrones couldn't see what was going on a lot of the time too.
-The Dokrathi charge was a solid way to waste 10k+ men in a matter of minutes. I doubt most of them were even able to take out a single wight before entering the hoard.
-The show set up too dire of a situation. I think it's impossible anyone survived. It kept showing thousands and thousands of wights pouring into the walls of Winterfell, but when it cut to inside the castle all of the main characters were able to hold them off by hand for hours. There were so many wights jumping down into the castle that the entire floor should have been 20 feet deep with them. Plus, after the NK raises all of the wights (plus the newly dead humans), the main characters were able to fight them off for another 10 minutes or so.
-Because of the comment above, I think it's a complaint that too many main characters lived. The ones that died were really D (Lyanna), C (Beric, Edd) or bottom B tier (Theon).
-Night King comes out as an idiot. I complained about how the human war strategy seemed dumb, but NK was even worse. Why did he step foot into battle at all? He should have let the wights clean house. He could have just let the wights battle for a day, raise them all, send them in again.
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Postby Tyler » Mon Apr 29, 2019 7:17 am

Blue Jackets wrote:Source of the post Dragonglass is useless against wights: Sam discovers that by stabbing a wight with a dragonsglass dagger, and the dagger shatters to pieces. He later tells Melisandre about the anomaly, that what kills Others is ineffective against wights. She explained "Necromancy animates these wights, yet they are still only dead flesh. Steel and fire will serve for them. The ones you call the Others are something more". Dragonglass apparently has no special effect on them, given that the TV series has confirmed that Valyrian steel can also kill White Walkers but to wights it is only a particularly sharp sword that can carve through them better than regular steel.

This partially wasn't true? I don't remember any normal sized wights being killed by it, but Lyanna certainly killed a wight giant thanks to dragonglass.
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Postby wags83 » Mon Apr 29, 2019 7:42 am

Overall I really liked the episode. I actually yelled when Arya ended up killing the Night King. But, I do agree with all your complaints. Especially the Dothraki charge, that was a HUGE waste.

My biggest issue though is the handling of dragons. The biggest/best weapons either side has were used horribly. Like you said, Dany and Jon were basically up in the clouds half the time. Then Dany lets her dragon land on the battle field to be swarmed by wights and almost gets both her and the dragon killed. I don't even know what happened to Jon's dragon. Is it dead? Seemed like it landed/crash landed and we never saw it again. And the wight dragon: this is the dragon that took down the Wall. It could have destroyed all of Winterfell by itself, yet all it did was hang out in an empty courtyard and play hide and seek with Jon.

I'm also a little disappointed by the deathtoll of characters we know. I was going in fully expecting to have my heart ripped out by the deaths of beloved characters. Instead, we get a few B/C character deaths. I guess maybe Jorah and Mellisandre are considered A characters, but we've been actively rooting for Jorah to die and everyone knew Mellisandre would die.
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Postby Tyler » Mon Apr 29, 2019 7:56 am

The more I talk about the episode with a coworker the more I dislike it. I think the ending was great, but there were quite a few missteps to get there. The action just wasn't staged very well at times and characters come across as stupid.

Sure, it is top 10 GoT episode. Probably a solid 8.5/10, but I was wanting a perfect episode.

wags83 wrote:Source of the post I guess maybe Jorah and Mellisandre are considered A characters

Lol. No.
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Postby wags83 » Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:01 am

Btw, turns out both dragons are still alive. I didn't stick around to watch the preview for the next episode, but I'm told both dragons are there.
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Postby cwilkins88 » Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:05 am

Tyler wrote:Source of the post Night King comes out as an idiot. I complained about how the human war strategy seemed dumb, but NK was even worse. Why did he step foot into battle at all? He should have let the wights clean house. He could have just let the wights battle for a day, raise them all, send them in again.


If he would've just waited, victory would've been 100%. The dead had nothing but time. Even if the wights themselves didn't take out everyone, who cares. Go get your army again and come back.
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Postby cwilkins88 » Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:06 am

The battle strategy doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but when you have constant resurrection, fire witches, ice and fire dragons, and an army of the dead, it would be nearly impossible for the writers to plan against anything.
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Postby Tyler » Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:10 am

cwilkins88 wrote:Source of the post The battle strategy doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but when you have constant resurrection, fire witches, ice and fire dragons, and an army of the dead, it would be nearly impossible for the writers to plan against anything.

I agree, but that is why I think the show made things too dire. They should have made the fire trenches last a longer, or the walls hold back more wights. I would have believed all of the main characters could survive if I didn't see 7k wights jump into Winterfell.
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Postby cwilkins88 » Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:13 am

Tyler wrote:Source of the post I agree, but that is why I think the show made things too dire. They should have made the fire trenches last a longer, or the walls hold back more wights. I would have believed all of the main characters could survive if I didn't see 7k wights jump into Winterfell.


Agreed. It seemed like the whole place was filled up.

Can we all just agree that the coolest thing in the whole world is when the heroes were near victorious, and NK just said "Naw bruh", and everyone rose. There was 5 seconds of just utter defeat there.
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Postby Tyler » Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:38 am

cwilkins88 wrote:Source of the post Can we all just agree that the coolest thing in the whole world is when the heroes were near victorious, and NK just said "Naw bruh", and everyone rose. There was 5 seconds of just utter defeat there.

I loved the scene of Jon running at him and the dead slowly started rising as he was sprinting towards NK. No idea how Jon got from here, to inside the castle to fight the ice dragon 1v1.
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Postby cwilkins88 » Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:58 am

Tyler wrote:Source of the post
cwilkins88 wrote:Source of the post Can we all just agree that the coolest thing in the whole world is when the heroes were near victorious, and NK just said "Naw bruh", and everyone rose. There was 5 seconds of just utter defeat there.

I loved the scene of Jon running at him and the dead slowly started rising as he was sprinting towards NK. No idea how Jon got from here, to inside the castle to fight the ice dragon 1v1.


They used TWD logic.
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Postby wags83 » Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:03 am

cwilkins88 wrote:Source of the post Can we all just agree that the coolest thing in the whole world is when the heroes were near victorious, and NK just said "Naw bruh", and everyone rose. There was 5 seconds of just utter defeat there.

Oh yeah, that was so demoralizing.

I think one other disappointment is that we didn't get a payoff to finding out what the Night King's endgame was, especially regarding what he wanted with Bran. Maybe Bran will somehow explain it later in the season, but for now that's a big question mark with an answer that doesn't really matter anymore.
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Postby Tyler » Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:09 am

cwilkins88 wrote:Source of the post They used TWD logic.

Nah. The fight didnt change from night to day, back to night within 15 minutes.

wags83 wrote:Source of the post I think one other disappointment is that we didn't get a payoff to finding out what the Night King's endgame was, especially regarding what he wanted with Bran. Maybe Bran will somehow explain it later in the season, but for now that's a big question mark with an answer that doesn't really matter anymore.

So true. Bran made it seem like the NK wanted him so much because Bran was the only one that could stop the NK, but Bran did nothing during the fight. Maybe we will learn Bran used his powers to put this all into place, but they didn't show any of that. Why couldn't the NK just have bypassed Winterfell and brought Winter to the whole continent that way. Bran was convenient plot bait
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Postby cwilkins88 » Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:10 am

Tyler wrote:
cwilkins88 wrote:Source of the post They used TWD logic.

Nah. The fight didnt change from night to day, back to night within 15 minutes.

wags83 wrote:Source of the post I think one other disappointment is that we didn't get a payoff to finding out what the Night King's endgame was, especially regarding what he wanted with Bran. Maybe Bran will somehow explain it later in the season, but for now that's a big question mark with an answer that doesn't really matter anymore.

So true. Bran made it seem like the NK wanted him so much because Bran was the only one that could stop the NK, but Bran did nothing during the fight. Maybe we will learn Bran used his powers to put this all into place, but they didn't show any of that. Why couldn't the NK just have bypassed Winterfell and brought Winter to the whole continent that way. Bran was convenient plot bait
I think you're misinterpreting. NK wanted to wipe out humanity and bran is a living memory of humanity. Nk can't complete his goal of that without killing him. I don't think it was said that bran was the only way to kill him

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Postby wags83 » Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:22 am

Tyler wrote:Source of the post Maybe we will learn Bran used his powers to put this all into place, but they didn't show any of that.

They showed him with his eyes in the back of his head for most of the battle. Was he just flying around as a raven that whole time? Seems like he could have been more useful, but maybe we'll find out he was actually doing something important. I think you mentioned while we were watching, it would have been more helpful for him to be scouting via wargging way earlier than he did.

Also, was Ghost, the last remaining dire wolf, unceremoniously killed off-screen during the wasteful initial charge in the battle?
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Postby Tyler » Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:25 am

wags83 wrote:Source of the post Also, was Ghost, the last remaining dire wolf, unceremoniously killed off-screen during the wasteful initial charge in the battle?

I saw via Reddit he was alive via a screenshot. I assume it during next week's preview.
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Postby cwilkins88 » Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:29 am

Tyler wrote:Source of the post
wags83 wrote:Source of the post Also, was Ghost, the last remaining dire wolf, unceremoniously killed off-screen during the wasteful initial charge in the battle?

I saw via Reddit he was alive via a screenshot. I assume it during next week's preview.


I know they are trying to put a pretty bow on this like Breaking Bad, but they are doing fan service for no reason by bringing in certain things for 2 seconds.
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Postby Watson2000 » Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:10 pm

Tyler wrote:Source of the post
I don't necessarily believe this myself, but I want to ask the question. Thematically, did Arya deserve the Night King kill? Would it have been better if Jon did it? Or even Jaime (the king slayer) or Bran?

Now some of the complaints:
-Dragons. Dany is horrible about utilizing her dragons. She should have been constantly roasting the wights. It seemed like her and Jon were stuck in a cloud for half of the battle. It was also really hard to follow the dragon action I thought.
-I mentioned the darkness above. I thought it was largely because we were watching in VR, but it seems like a large majority on r/gameofthrones couldn't see what was going on a lot of the time too.
-The Dokrathi charge was a solid way to waste 10k+ men in a matter of minutes. I doubt most of them were even able to take out a single wight before entering the hoard.
-The show set up too dire of a situation. I think it's impossible anyone survived. It kept showing thousands and thousands of wights pouring into the walls of Winterfell, but when it cut to inside the castle all of the main characters were able to hold them off by hand for hours. There were so many wights jumping down into the castle that the entire floor should have been 20 feet deep with them. Plus, after the NK raises all of the wights (plus the newly dead humans), the main characters were able to fight them off for another 10 minutes or so.
-Because of the comment above, I think it's a complaint that too many main characters lived. The ones that died were really D (Lyanna), C (Beric, Edd) or bottom B tier (Theon).
-Night King comes out as an idiot. I complained about how the human war strategy seemed dumb, but NK was even worse. Why did he step foot into battle at all? He should have let the wights clean house. He could have just let the wights battle for a day, raise them all, send them in again.



I really enjoyed the episode. As to some of your points Tyler

Arya might of been the best choice...she is a servant of the "death" god. Seems right that she would be the one to end the NK. Jon would be a good second choice (but he already has cool things happening for him...hot Aunt, gets a dragon, second life, etc...). Jamie I think will have something to do with the down fall of his sister. And Bran, Bran can't do shite but warg into crows or say hidden meaning things...

Why didn't Dany and Jon burn the undead closer to the keep? Instead they were in the background doing it. Have your troops in the keep and burn the crap out of the ones trying to climb the walls...

The Dokrathi was a very nice shot to watch. But silly for a strategy. Why were they hoping sending them out there would do? The undead are not going to be scared by a Dokrathi charge. Why not have them in the wings and have them sweep in from the sides or rear?

On the next episode scenes, it looked like there are more survivors then one would thing with how bleak it looked on the inside. It appeared that only named characters were still alive fighting for their life. Seems silly...

This whole weekend was supposed to be about favorites dying between GoT and End Game. And what, we can count on two hands the total between the two? I agree with Tyler, more death!

I don't think the NK was an idiot per se, I think it was more that the battle was over, and he is the one that gets to end the Three Eye Crow.

It was a fun episode to watch though. Now I'm wondering how they stretch out the whole Kings Landing issue with 4.5 hours... Oy

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